ripped wave versus cda sound

Dieses Thema im Forum "Exact Audio Copy - English" wurde erstellt von danane, 22 Juli 2003.

  1. danane

    danane
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    Cda sound versus ripped wave.
    Hello
    I have always been wondering why this drop of sound fulness
    in ripped cdas.
    When listening via earphones, in particular, the ripped wave
    sound more shrieky, less rounded than the original cda.
    When burned, the ripped wave gets even farther in this default.
    Everybody keeps telling me that this is not true.
    Thanks
     
  2. Dark Shadow

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    It is not true.

    Maybe you use wrong settings for cdda extraction.
     
  3. Ducon

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    Like Joan of Ark
    I must be eharing things
     
  4. Halcyon

    Halcyon
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    danane,

    it is quite possible.

    Can you please tell us where do you have your headphone connected? Sound card? CD-ROM drive output?

    Also, do you have a cable between your cd-rom drive and your sound card?

    regards,
    Halcyon
     
  5. danane

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    ripped waves loss of quality

    Dear Halcyon,
    I have tried 40 rippers and none of them offers waves sounding as the original cda.
    Once burned these ripped waves sound even worse.
    I play them on a high tech system.
    The most accurate ripper/burner on classical music seem to be
    Prassi Primo
    and he most accurate ripper - though far from the original cda - is
    "AudioConverter".
    I know I don't stand a chance to convince you, but there IS a dramatic drop in quality is reproduced music and I can't find no way to get around this.
    There is namely a drop in low medium and bass, the sounds getting more shrieky than, the original, lack of fulness, etc.
    Regards. Danane.
     
  6. Halcyon

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    danane,

    I will not try to denounce your findings.

    However, it would be nice to know how you have compared the findings.

    Have you played back both the original cd and the ripped wavs (burned onto a CDR) on the same playback gear?

    regards,
    Halcyon

    PS I have personally conducted a blind test of original cd audio vs copied cd audio using very high quality 20 000+ euro equipment with two analytical listeners who have more than 10 years of experience in listening to audio gear. We could find no statistical differences between the sound of the original compared to the copy. YMMV, of course.
     
  7. danane

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    Dear Halcyon,
    Of course I play copies and originals on the same equipment.
    ---
    When friends play originals and copies, even on cheap pc speakers, to check whether I can tell from originals to clopies, I can tell which is which from from the very first seconds of listening, without making mistakes.
    ---
    I discussed this topic with some sound specialists and they all agreed that a copy will always be inferior in quality versus the original.
    ----
    The mystery of Joan of Ark seems to be bound to last.
    Regards,
    Danane
     
  8. Seattle_Bob

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  9. Danane

    Danane
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    Hello seattle Bob
    I am curious to know how a burned cd can be laser-read the same way as an original silver that is PRESSED (moulded).
    The reading of the cd by the laser beam cannot be the same and thus the sound non identical.
    Reading a burned groove and a pressed one is not expected to technically produce the same sonic impression.
    Anyway, I personally cannot manage tio ontain a cd copy that sound as good (fulness, richness of sound) as the originals, even with EAC.
    That distresses me.
    Danane.
     
  10. Halcyon

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    Danane,

    I can understand your distress, and will not try to refute that. That is a subjective phenomenological issue. People who will call you an idiot for that, do not understand the issue in terms of philosophy of science.

    However, I'm pretty condifent in saying that all the real experts here, in other forums and at highly regarded engineering organisations such as AES will agree, that it is quite possible to make a 1:1 bit-perfect copy of the actual audio content of a non-copy protected unscratched audio cd. That is, the audio data will be exactly the same on the CD-R as on the original.

    Furthermore, it is even possible to burn a CD-R copy that has LESS media based intrisic jitter and less bit-level symbol errors than the actual pressed original audio CD.

    If you want, I can dig up evidence material for you on this second issue.

    However, the fact remains that as long as the copy is burned carefully, it will be equal OR BETTER in playback (in signal theory terms!) than the original. Of course, this does not mean that people will hear it such, but the purity of the signal can be equal or better when considered in terms of signal theory.

    It is also possible that CD-R discs burned on a sub-par media, using incompatible burners and/or read in a very picky cd player, may sound worse in signal theory terms.

    These problems can be associated with lower reflectivity, increased jitter, additional symbol errors and increased use of errorr correction and concealment.

    In technical terms this is a problem that is caused by the inter-compatibility of the burned disc and the cd player in question. It is not simply a proof that all CD-R discs will be worse than originals. It just shows that the burned cd-r disc in question will not play back properly with the cd player in question (when compared to the original pressed disc).

    friendly regards,
    Halcyon
     
    #10 Halcyon, 26 Juli 2003
    Zuletzt bearbeitet: 26 Juli 2003
  11. Czarek

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  12. Czarek

    Czarek
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    How to do it?

    Regards
     
  13. Halcyon

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    Czarek,

    1) How to burn a copy that has 1:1 bit perfect copy of the audio data?

    Well EAC using a drive that reads into lead-in/lead-out. (or using Plextools and a Plextor drive to do the same)

    After that it becomes a matter of ripping the original and disc and showing that the contents match 1:1.

    Many people here do it on a regular basis, so it's possible.

    2) How to burn a copy with less media based errors than what the original has?

    That is quite possible and not as difficult as people often thing it is.

    Let me show you:

    Here is a C1/C2/CU scan of an orginal CD I have, which does not have copy-protection and which was just taken out of shrink wrap (i.e. no handling dirt, scratches or other visible defects):

    Original errors
    [​IMG]

    Original jitter
    [​IMG]


    Now, as you can see, all errors are correctable by the drive I use to read it with. So, with proper tools I can rip the data off that original disc without any errors and then burn it.

    I did ripping in EAC using LiteOn 48246S in secure mode with C2 turned on. I did burning with Feurio (in order to be able to use AMQ setting in Yamaha) using Yamaha CRW3200 at 4x onto a high quality CD-R disc.

    Look at the scan for the copy:


    CD-R copy errors
    [​IMG]

    CD-R Copy jitter
    [​IMG]

    As you can see, both the amount of errors and jitter has diminished measurable when compared to the original (one caveat: the measurements may not be totally accurate for even that reader on which they were made. However current understanding is that they are likely to be at least useful for comparison against each other).

    So it is quite possible to do a better copy than the original.

    Best regards,
    Halcyon
     
  14. Czarek

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    Thank You very much for Your answering!

    I have some questions more about what You've replied.

    Q1: How to do C1/C2/CU scans as You do?

    And more:

    Q2. Is it better to burn w/ Feurio than w/ EAC or Nero?

    Q3. Why do You have to burn CDA using Yamaha and not Your Lite-On? Is Yamaha's AMQ such important?

    Q4. Could You give examples of high quality CD-R disks You use?

    Regards,
    Czarek
     
  15. Halcyon

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    >Q1: How to do C1/C2/CU scans as You do?

    A: I did the above scans in Plextor Premium cdrw drive using plextools pro. Similar scans can be done with LiteON cdrw drives using KProbe software.

    >Q2. Is it better to burn w/ Feurio than w/ EAC or Nero?

    I cannot use Yamaha Audio Master Quality burning with EAC, so I had to burn with Feurio.

    >Q3. Why do You have to burn CDA using Yamaha and not Your Lite-
    >On? Is Yamaha's AMQ such important?

    That's a good question. I plan to investigate that further. LiteOns can produce even lower C1/C2 counts on some discs. Haven't measured jitter

    >Q4. Could You give examples of high quality CD-R disks You use?

    I use basically the same that more knowledgeable people also use:

    Mitsui Gold Ultra II
    Ricoh Gold
    Emtec Ceram Guard (Tayio Yuden manufactured)
    Verbatim Crystal SuperAzo (Mitsubishi Chemicals manufactured)

    just to mention some that I use.


    regards,
    Halcyon
     
  16. Czarek

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    Thank You very much for comprehensive answers!

    It would be great to get to know results of Your investigation!

    Regards,
    Czarek
     
  17. JeanLuc

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    Are you sure that you do not rip using an ADPCM codec (this will give you wav files) or something ? How large (im MB) does a 4 minute track get after ripping ?
     
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